“The clearer you are in your priorities and the experience you want your clients to have, but also what you want to teach them without saying it. The clearer you are on those things, the easier it’s going to be to choose what suits you.”
There is so much genius that lives inside people’s heads, and very often it just stays there. Mariana Peña is an award-winning instructional designer for purpose-driven online businesses and gets ideas out of people’s heads and into the world. She helps companies develop unique certification programs that are an authentic extension of the brand. As a Mexican immigrant living in the Netherlands, Mariana is unapologetically brown and actively works with clients of color.
In this episode, Mariana offers us a look into how she bridges the gap between facilitator and learner experiences to help create courses that make an impact. She believes that working with people of color will change the landscape by offering different perspectives of the world. We talk about what this means, and she shares why it is something she is so passionate about. Be sure to tune in to hear it all!
What You’ll Learn From This Episode:
- [01:13] What an instructional designer entails and how Mariana’s journey began
- [04:59] Common problems clients face that need the assistance of an instructional designer
- [08:23] Marginalized people often feel like they have to prove themselves
- [09:52] Helping clients set boundaries in their courses
- [14:16] The simplicity that underpins Mariana’s business
- [19:56] Challenges Mariana faces working across every time zone
- [22:57] Even though people have online businesses, they still limit themselves geographically
- [24:18] When you are clear on your priorities, you can make systems that work for you
- [25:55] Why it is so important to work with clients of color
- [28:45] An example of how our cultural backgrounds shape our worldview
- [32:16] How Mariana’s awareness has shaped the work she does with her clients
Connect with Us:
- On Instagram | @businesslaidbare
Connect with Mariana Peña:
“My main purpose with my business is helping and supporting people of color to reclaim their voice in their industry. I want them to not shy away from taking up space and sharing their enormous expertise.”
Instructional designer for purpose-driven online business owners who want to develop a red-hot, unique-to-them certification program that feels like a true representation of them and transforms their clients on a deliciously and unusually deep level.
00:00:01] Veronica Yanhs: Hey, I’m Veronica Yanhs and I’m obsessed with back-ends. Specifically, your business back-end, your operations. I’m the CEO and founder of Business Laid Bare. We’re a digital operations agency that builds well-lubricated and Orgasmic Operations ™ so that your business is pleasurable, productive and ultimately profitable because when you feel good, everything else feels good too, like your team, your customers and your bank account. I mean, who doesn’t want to consent to that? This podcast gives you the tips, interviews and mindset shifts on how to run your business and its operations so that it’s immensely pleasurable, productive and profitable. Ready to whip your business into shape with me?
Let’s get it on.
All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Business Whip. I am so delighted to have Mariana on my show today because we are going to talk about all things instructional design and everything that she has to share. I’m not going to put words in your mouth, because you are the expert, Mariana. Why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us what it is that you do in the online business world?
[00:01:13] Mariana Peña: Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here. This is going to be a fabulous conversation. What do I do? That’s a very good question. I say always that I’m an instructional designer, which always lead to, “Yeah, but what’s that?” If you think about apps, I would be Google Maps but for your brain. That means that you tell me where do you want to take your students or clients to and I’m about the learning journey. Rest stops, scenery roads, everything that you want to do as long, as short, as intensive, as enjoyable as you want it to be, I’m that person that’s going to be pulling the ideas from your head and giving them structure so that you can actually teach something that makes sense and it’s easy to implement.
[00:01:59] Veronica Yanhs: I love how you create such a guided experience for not only client, but your clients’ clients and students. Was this something that was just always easy to you or did you stumble upon it recently? This just sounds like your zone of genius, like it just seems like you’re breathing when you’re doing this.
[00:02:19] Mariana Peña: Oh! I think I’ve been always doing this since I can remember. I was always that person in class that whenever the teacher said something that didn’t make a lot of sense, everybody would turn to me and say, “What does that mean, Mariana?” Then I will be like, “Okay. Listen. Imagine that blah, blah, blah, blah. What you need to do is blah, blah, blah.” They’re like, “Oh! Okay. I get that.” I just thought that was a fun thing to do when I was in school. Then when I became an educator full-time, it just became much more strong in me and I went from just teaching students to training the new teachers.
When I moved to the Netherlands, because I’m located in the Netherlands now – I’m Mexican by the way. When I moved to the Netherlands, I was like, “What can I do here?” It was like crickets everywhere, because it’s starting from scratch. A very good friend of mine said, “Why don’t you do what you love the most?” I said, “Are people are going to pay for that?” it turns out, there is a gap in the market for people who have the ability to pull the idea that you have and to translate something that you do intuitively into a structure that make sense and they can replicate. I don’t know if that answers the question. It was a very long-winded answer.
[00:03:54] Veronica Yanhs: No, I love it. I mean, I always tell like on a guest, I’m always like, “Here is my story in a nutshell but it’s probably like a coconut shell because that’s like the biggest nut that I can think of at this moment.” No, this is amazing because a lot of times when we are so good at what we do, we don’t realize that it’s a gift. It’s almost like – it sounds like it should be common sense. I run into this a lot because I’m always like, “People are going to pay me for this?” It just feels so easy, but in reality, we are all experts at certain things. I think most of us when we are subject matter expert like this, it’s always like, “Someone is really going to pay for this?” Why? You should be able to do it yourself, but we can’t.
What are all the things that your clients usually tell you and I’m asking you this because maybe we have a listener that’s like, “Do I need help designing my expertise, creating a roadmap, being the Google maps or being the maps?”? What is it in common that your clients have when they come to you?
[00:04:59] Mariana Peña: Oh! This is a very food question. All of them are very knowledgeable. I have the privilege and opportunity to work with people that just know what they’re doing. They know the ins and outs of everything, and they are so passionate that they dream about it. They wake up and they make things happen. But when that is the case, it becomes a second nature to you because you’re so invested in it. They are always talking about things like you said. Well, isn’t this common sense? Answer is, no, it isn’t. It is to you, but not for the rest of those mortals that are not copywriter experts. They talk about, I want to change the life of the people that get into my course, so I’m going to give them everything that I know. Everything I know and more because nobody did that to me. Okay? Let’s rewind, let’s find what is actually needed.
They talk about being at the same stage with a maze of Post-Its on the wall with all these topics that they want to cover. They cannot figure out where to start, how to make a structure, where to end. But mostly, what’s always a question is, “Does this make sense to someone else?” Because at the end of it, that’s what teaching and learning is all about. It’s about making sense of something so that you can then take that new knowledge and implement it in your own way. If it doesn’t make sense, you won’t be able to do that, but it has to make sense on the facilitators end and on the learner’s end. I’m that bridge that connects both experiences.
[00:06:59] Veronica Yanhs: Do you ever run into clients who want to like give their clients everything with their students all the information that they know? Because I feel like that would be me like, “Am I giving enough? I know so much, let me just make sure I share enough so that I have enough value. It almost sounds like that might not be a great tactic. Our feelings of inadequacy are actually good because it helps us be more judicious. Is that what I’m hearing as well?
[00:07:28] Mariana Peña: It has to do with a lot of different things, right? I work mostly with non-white identified people. Most of my client are Black business owners, Latin business owners, Mexian-American. There is a layer of – I still think that I need to prove myself and my expertise. We’re not aware of that layer. We’re not aware of that, right? Because the world is so complex that we learn how to navigate it in our own certain way. But when it comes to teaching, we carry our own baggage with us. That is one particular point that is very – very specific for people of color for example, myself included. We feel the need to –
[00:08:22] Veronica Yanhs: Myself included.
[00:08:23] Mariana Peña: Yes, exactly. We feel the need to prove by all means necessary that we are equipped to teach this. Well, that is a very honorable sentiment. It is counterproductive for the brain of whoever is learning from you, because then we’re going to overload. We don’t want to overload them. The brain needs space to breath, and to process and simmer things. Especially in the online world where we are so focused on skills development and action taking. Well, that involves habits and that involves mindset shifts. Those are not overnight. That’s a very fine line that I help my clients with to, “Okay. Yes, I know you’re very knowledgeable. I know you’re the expert that’s why we’re creating this course. But that doesn’t mean that we have to throw away everything into the same thing because that’s not going to help anyone. You wouldn’t even finish your own course if we’re being honest. We don’t want that. We want to avoid that.
[00:09:36] Veronica Yanhs: What is a good boundary that you have offered your clients so that they’re not throwing everything in the kitchen sink into a curriculum or whatever it is that they’re doing.
[00:09:52] Mariana Peña: There are two ways of – two way that I offer them. The first one, the most confronting one is when I tell them, “What is the one thing that you want them to learn?” One.
[00:10:06] Veronica Yanhs: Oh! Okay. I like that. Just one?
[00:10:10] Mariana Peña: Just one. They’re like, “No, but that’s impossible.” No, it’s not impossible. Like one thing. We’re going to build a curriculum around one single thing. When that becomes a very difficult or challenging question to answer, then we go to the next option, which is, “Okay. Tell me three things that they will be able to do once they completed your course. But most importantly, tell me three things that they won’t be able to accomplish once they completed your course.”
[00:10:49] Veronica Yanhs: Oh! This is so good. Do you have clients that lean towards option one or two more or like, is it pretty like evenly split down the middle?
[00:11:03] Mariana Peña: It is a very interesting situation because the clients that are able to answer the first one, like what’s the one thing that I want them to learn. This end up being courses that are very curriculum oriented. They have a very specific point of information that they want to deliver. Whereas the other ones are more experiential-oriented so that means that we’re focusing on developing skills. The main goal is that, we know we accept this, the transformation is most likely going to happen once they completed the course because skills take time. But it’s so much fun to see their faces, like why do you – one thing, that’s impossible. I don’t like this. I don’t want to work with you anymore. This doesn’t make sense. Like, you know, yeah, it does. Let’s work through it.
The other one, like the three things that they won’t be able to do, it’s a very realistic way of setting the boundaries and being very objective about, “Okay. You’re not going to solve anyone’s life. This is just an entry point.”
[00:12:22] Veronica Yanhs: As you’re talking about this, I’m immediately like, operations. Maybe this is because I know operation so well, it’s like, I’m like, “I just can’t have them take one thing away.” If I had to go that route, I would be like, “The biggest take away is that, operations are something that you need to be thinking about for your business right now. Not tomorrow, not the next day, but like consistently thinking of.” But at the same time, I’m like, “Okay.” That’s so vague because if I say that I’m like, “I have all these things that I have to like teach you.” So then I’m like, okay. If I go to the second route, what are the three things I’ll take away. But I’m like, “Three things, that’s not enough.” I have like 12 more things afterwards.
Which is why, it’s so much better that as an agency, we just tell you what to do or we do the work for you, because this is where teaching is not easy for me, which is why I’m glad that I am not designed to business around teaching. Otherwise, that does not feel orgasmic or I’ll teach them a workshop and that’s a little bit different. Let’s turn this back on you. Speaking of making things orgasmic, what have you done in your business like operationally that has enabled you to find so much joy in what you do every day. I want to hear about like your systems, and all that good stuff, all the stuff that I find exciting.
[00:13:48] Mariana Peña: First, I want to just acknowledge how awesome it is to think about your business being orgasmic. That just on its own, it’s a whole thing. I would say, what makes it feel like that to me is that I’ve built a business around simplicity, because –
[00:14:15] Veronica Yanhs: Okay, tell me more.
[00:14:16] Mariana Peña: Yes, because we are – I’m working with my clients on very heavy stuff, beliefs and changing belief system, and cultural background and how do we achieve social justice in this module. Like it’s very heavy. To me, I needed to have a very lean backend to help me focus only on the content, rather than in the bells and whistles. I started out working solely on Google Drive and I’m still doing that. It’s something that, I don’t know, when it first was launched many years ago, people still were like, “How do you use it? Is this a normal word processer? I don’t know.” But by now, I don’t have to explain how to use it. I don’t have to spend time of my process into educating them into the platform they already know. It’s just a very uncomplicated way of dealing with very complicated thoughts.
[00:15:29] Veronica Yanhs: I love this. I love how you have complemented by going simple when the stuff that your clients are dealing with are very complex. How has that served you? Like, tell me, like did you come to this realization right away or did it take some iteration?
[00:15:53] Mariana Peña: I started out doing it because I liked it. Then you know, you hear advice here and there and there is a lot of it online. Also, do I need to Dubsado? I tried Dubsado and it’s not serving my process. I know you can make wonders with it, but we are two people working on the same document at the same time. That’s not going to happen in something that it doesn’t look like Google Docs. So then, I went back Google Docs full time. I was like, “No, I’m staying here.” Because unless I find something else – of course, there are other like instruction or design apps that make it look very cool. Like yeah, you can have your sticky notes online and then you can group them here and there. Yes, they are cool. Yes.
It’s just one-on-one, it’s a very intimate – I want them to feel relaxed. I don’t want them to go, “I don’t know how to use this, Mariana.” Then hold back because of a platform, no. I don’t want that for them. It’s a very easy process. I don’t even have a sales page. I use Google Docs to sell my services. There’s a link inside the Google Doc that connects directly to ThriveCart. Once they are in, we’ll schedule up a call and that’s it. They get their copy of the Google doc and that’s where we live for the six, eight weeks that we’re working together.
[00:17:28] Veronica Yanhs: Oh! That’s a very short process for being able to distill somebody’s genius in what they want to get through to their clients efficiently. That’s nice.
[00:17:41] Mariana Peña: It’s so nice to hear that. Thank you very much. Because the majority of advice out there around online courses is, you can do it in a day. Baba ding bada boom. I’m still reeducating people around, “No. It’s a process. It takes time. We have to go back and revisit things, and connect all the dots. It’s not just magic.”
[00:18:09] Veronica Yanhs: It isn’t? No. It just sounds like it. I want to go back to what you were saying earlier about going from like Google Doc to like Dubsado and then back to Google Docs. Like that is a core concept of what we do in our business teachings is that, app, software, it’s just the tip. It’s just the cherry on top. This is what happens when you don’t understand what you may need from this tool, because a tool is neutral, right? It only can do what you tell it to do. Like, when you decide and have specific requirements, you’re like, “I want to be able to have this be simplified. I want to make sure that I can collaborate with my clients so that they feel stress when we’re working together.
It’s like, you’re not even talking about apps at this point. You’re talking about the needs and the requirements of every system, or whatever it is you’re doing, then you find the apps that fit. I absolutely love that, and this is what minimizes the app jumping. Imagine signing it for so many different apps that don’t suit your needs because you want X, but they do Y and Z, but you don’t even know it. It’s like, imagine that much time you’d be wasting and how frustrated you would be. I love –
[00:19:29] Mariana Peña: It’s energy draining.
[00:19:30] Veronica Yanhs: Exactly. I love that you focused on that. But I’m always a fan of even though something is good, I’m always a fan of asking, “How can it be better? How can it be more orgasmic?” I’m going to –
[00:19:46] Mariana Peña: Yes.
[00:19:45] Veronica Yanhs: Unfortunately, we can’t see the look on your face, but I can. Tell me. You’re telling me about how great your system is, so I’m going to push you like, what about it can be more orgasmic?
[00:19:56] Mariana Peña: Yes. If we could just get everyone in the world on the same time zone, that would be perfect for me, because I am based in the Netherlands. I have clients from Singapore, to LA, Vancouver and Dominican Republic. I’m pretty sure I have like at least six different time zones that I’m dealing with. That means that most of my calls have to be scheduled manually because I cannot simply open up to 24 hours for our calendar. If I – I work withSquarespace and Squarespace bought Acuity and I love it. At the same time, I’m in this conundrum because how do I do that, how do I manage to have a calendar where clients can go and schedule their own calls if I am serving a lot of people and a lot of different time zones.
[00:21:01] Veronica Yanhs: No, and this is not easy. Something that I thought is, we use Acuity as well. If you have different opening maybe on certain days like Mondays and Tuesdays, you serve these time zones. You’re taking calls maybe later in the day. Then on like Wednesdays and Thursdays, you’re taking calls earlier in the day. I mean, it’s not a perfect solution, because this is what happens when you have global clients. Like, “Wow! What an amazing feat to be able to serve so many different clients from all around the world and that’s a great problem to have. Then when it comes to the time zones, how can we do it or the other thing I was thinking of is like, how do you meet and get the information you need without always having to meet your clients so that’s it’s more efficient and you’re getting the requirements and stuff without having to meet them all the time. Instead of like maybe weekly meetings and I’m just pulling things out of my ass, it’s like, maybe we start with like every other week or maybe meet as needed, so that your sanity is saved.
[00:22:10] Mariana Peña: The first ones that you mention is something that I would love to do. Perhaps I can find a way around it, but I have also personal limitations for example. I only have certain amount of daycare days. That means that I can only schedule calls and Tuesday and Wednesday for example and the rest of the day. I will look into that, because that actually makes sense. Maybe I can make that work, to assign just days for the calendars. Mm-hmm, yes. The other one though –
[00:22:46] Veronica Yanhs: I didn’t mean to give you unsolicited advice.
[00:22:48] Mariana Peña: No. Listen, I’m open to it.
[00:22:51] Veronica Yanhs: This is what happens. I always go into solution mode.
[00:22:55] Mariana Peña: If I can get an expert to give me advice, I’ll take it. But I find that when people say online business, not everybody is serving clients globally. They limit – they still limit themselves to their own country. These are things that normally don’t come up in group coaching programs, for example. I’m not saying I’m the only one dealing with this issue, of course. There are more people, but yeah.
Meeting weekly, yes. I have reduced that as much as possible, but still, because I don’t offer done for you. They are the co-creators. I went from a very long process to now six weeks, because I did that hybrid thing that I also teach them how to do for their own thing and services. But yeah, I’m still a work in process when it comes to the backend, absolutely.
[00:23:54] Veronica Yanhs: What advice would you give someone if someone was also a service-based business, kind of like doing what you were doing, helping others either bring out their genius. Like what advice could you give them from your experience as to how to build systems that would suit their needs to make their business thrive?
[00:24:12] Mariana Peña: Well, of course, this advice is not going to come from an expert point of view in systems. From my perspective, I would say that the clearer you are in your priorities and the experience you want your clients to have, but also what you want to teach them without saying it. The clearer you are on those things, the easier it’s going to be to choose what suits you. Like you said, I knew they were going to be dealing with a lot of heavy stuff. I want them to feel relaxed. What is going to give me that feeling? Then I can choose the option. Of course, I try here and there, but I went back to the beginning.
If you are very grounded on the experience I do want to create and what you want them to learn from you, because even though you’re a service provider, they are also learning from you. You’re not just delivering a product or a service, then use that to guide you in your apps acquisition along the way.
[00:25:27] Veronica Yanhs: That’s so good. I actually want to go back to something that you said at the beginning of this episode, and that you are very unapologetic about wanting and choosing to serving like clients who are people of color. Can you talk more about why that’s so important to you?
[00:25:46] Mariana Peña: Yes, absolutely. I believe that it’s up to us to reshape the landscape.
[00:25:53] Veronica Yanhs: What do you mean?
[00:25:55] Mariana Peña: For example, teaching and learning, I am an educator. I’ve been in this for the past 15 years professionally. I can tell you that the theories that we learn in school when we want to become teachers are white-centered theories. The journals that get published are written by white males mostly. The funding goes to white academics and authors. You can only imagine that if you are conducting research with a group of white students, you get some results. But then you go ahead and you want to implement that with a cohort of people of color, they don’t have the same background. They don’t have the same experiences. That doesn’t only affect the cohort. It affects the teacher too. Because all of a sudden, you don’t know what you’re doing.
My main purpose with my business is helping and supporting people of color to reclaim their voice in their industry. I want them to not shy away from taking up space and sharing their enormous expertise. Our cultural background sometimes is a little bit heavy on us and it makes us feel that we’re not up to par with other figures out there and that is not true. All of my clients are doing amazing things in DEI, in global inclusion, in social justice, and STEM and all of these wonderful, fabulous things that would not be able to happen if they were not people of color. Their own intersections bring something different to the education world.
[00:27:52] Veronica Yanhs Is there an example that you can give our listeners just to showcase the difference of what it’s like to not be white-centered? Was that the right word to use? I don’t want to come across tone death, but that’s like the word that I felt called to say.
[00:28:06] Mariana Peña: No, it’s okay. To be honest, this is not really explored officially in the education world for teachers. But yes, for example, cultural background has a very big role in how we deal with authority. There are certain cultures that traditionally are more horizontal and others that are more vertical. That means, your proximity to power is different. If you come from traditionally white protestant culture, you have learned that you are very near to power because it’s a very horizontal structure. That means that students are prone to simply ask questions. They are not afraid of saying, “That doesn’t make sense.” I don’t understand that. I didn’t do this, because it doesn’t work for me.”
Whereas, I’ll give you an example. I’m Mexican. People from Mexico like us in general, we are raised in a very vertical authority line that starts at home.
[00:29:17] Veronica Yanhs: As us Asians.
[00:29:20] Mariana Peña: For example, Asians too. It starts at home. You don’t disrespect your elders. You don’t talk back to people. That transfers immediately to school. When you spend the majority of your life in school, and we’re talking about more than 10 years just reconfirming that vertical line, when you’re an adult and you want to take a course just for your professional development, guess who is going to jump in the Q&A sessions. My job is, when working with my clients, to keep those things in mind. Are we creating a learning journey that is going to favor some individuals in particular or are we going to create something that is going to take cultural background into account?
[00:30:09] Veronica Yanhs: This is where it gets really, really juicy. I can only imagine like if you are serving people of color as clients, that they are also serving for their clients who are also people of color. It’s not only like one dimension. You’re looking at multiple layers of complex design that needs to be taken account of because it’s not just you and your clients. It’s you, your clients, and then ultimately their clients and students. What you have to do is pay attention to so much.
[00:30:45] Mariana Peña: Yes. We are basically creating a legacy of knowledge. That’s what I mean by reshaping the landscape. We can do that if we take the time to think, “Hold on. Not everybody is the same.” We don’t all relate to authority in the same way. This is just one example. There are multiple things like accessibility. Are we welcoming everyone that wants to learn or are we creating barriers? Are we playing gatekeeping instead of teaching? There are many things that come together when creating a learning journey. That’s why it takes time to design a program.
[00:31:42] Veronica Yanhs: How has this awareness or what you do for your clients and their clients and students influenced how you will be mentoring and teaching your team members when you bring on team members to work in your business?
[00:31:55] Mariana Peña: That’s a very good question, because culture is a big part of it. I am also biased. I try my best to remember that my beliefs, my values, my philosophy might not be as clear as I think they are. When we are creating a team regardless of what type of team is that, we fail to communicate those things. We believe, “Oh! If I create like a job description, someone applies. If it fits, great.” When in fact, yeah. Well, there’s more to that. It’s a culture that you had when you were solopreneur that you created for yourself that has to do with your life and you lived the experiences. But when other people come in, how is that going to match the vision that you had?
I right now only have one team member, she’s also a fellow Mexican. We are working through that. I trust her, I respect her opinions and expertise. But because both of us are Mexicans, we still encounter these barriers of, I don’t know if she’s asking me the questions that she wants to ask. I have to explicitly say, “Please, ask me the questions” or “Think out loud. At least think out loud with me.”
[00:33:36] Veronica Yanhs: Oh! I love that suggestion. As somebody who was brought up to be seen and not heard, my parents did a terrible job because look, now I talk for a living as part of my business. That is so important. Creating that culture of transparency is so important that is sometimes not looked upon as a priority because it just falls to the way side. But having your team work well together like this, and especially with what you do and taking into consideration like all the different cultures, all the different lived experiences can’t be easy. I look forward to following up with you again.
I would love to have you on the show again to talk about like, okay. You have one team member who has these similar experiences than you, as you. So then like, what happens when down the line you have like five team members who are all different. I can’t wait to pick your brain about how that is going to go and hear your stories as to how you were able to navigate all that.
[00:34:35] MP: I’d love to come back. I don’t know when that team is going to become five members, but yes, bring it on.
[00:34:46] Veronica Yanhs: It’s going to be great. It’s going to be such a fun experience, because we’re going to be able to talk about, “Hey! Remember when you had one team member in those systems. Now let’s talk about those systems with five team members and what’s new.” There’s going to be a lot. There’s going to be a fun follow-up for this.
Before I let you go, can you tell our listeners how they can work with you if they are drawn to teaching and sharing their expertise, and also where you can be found on the internet?
[00:35:11] Mariana Peña: Yes. Hit me up on Instagram or Facebook. If you feel that you’re at that moment in your business where you want to amplify your work and your reach, but especially bring your own intersections while doing that, then we are a good match and I cannot wait to work with you. Just feel free to connect with me. I love conversations as you can see today.
[00:35:41] Veronica Yanhs: Well, thank you so much, Mariana for being on the show. I learned so much from just the short time that I’ve been chatting with you. I look forward to supporting your business endeavors, like cheering you on and helping you help your people change the world. That just gets me so damn excited for what you do. That’s it. Thank you so much for being on the show.
[00:36:04] Mariana Peña: Thank you. Until next time.
[00:36:07] Veronica Yanhs: Thanks for listening to The Business Whip, hosted by yours truly, Veronica Yanhs, CEO and Founder of Business Laid Bare. If you enjoyed this episode, spank that subscribe button in whichever podcast app you’re listening in and share this with your friends. Your support means everything, so thank you from the bottom of my butt because let’s be real, it’s so much bigger than my heart.